FREQUENTLY ASKED
QUESTIONS
...answered by Dennis
Thompson
Please click on the questions below, or just scroll
down to read them all...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It is the only name that is
based on an extensive understanding...
|
The
name Gypsy Vanner Horse is the first name in the world to recognize a selectively bred horse raised by Gypsies as a breed. It is also
the only name that was carefully chosen based on an extensive understanding
of Gypsies and their horses. All other names came after the name 'Gypsy
Vanner Horse'. Individuals, with different visions, coined them all. Gypsy
Gold's stallion Cushti
Bok is the first selectively bred horse raised by Gypsies in the world to be recognized as a breed. The Gypsy,
Tom Price, who raised Cushti Bok said to me, “These horses are a lot harder
to understand than people think. ” Tom was profoundly correct.. For
a more in depth understanding of the people, the breed they developed and the name Gypsy Vanner Horse see,
|
Click
here to return to
list of questions (or scroll down)
World renowned trainer Lynn
Palm on The Gypsy King

...the
versatility and talent of the amazing Vanner horses.
|
The Gypsy Vanner Horse is surprisingly athletic, smart, willing and retains training very well. In addition the Vanner has an almost unflappable demeanor. The combination of ability, brains and calm make the Vanner a candidate for any number of equestrian pursuits such as driving, English and western riding, jumping, pleasure and trail. The number one tandem driving team in North America for 2001 were Jasmine and Esmerelda of Bit a Both farms. Jasmine and Esmerelda were two of the original 16 Vanners imported to America by Gypsy Gold. Breyer model The Gypsy King is the second Gypsy Vanner Horse stallion to arrive in North America. It was the renowned trainer and clinician, Lynn Palm, who first trained The Gypsy King for us, and Lynn will attest to his athletic abilities. Appearing as a special guest at the Pin Oak charity horse show in Houston Texas The Gypsy King was ridden by 27 time USDF champion, Gold medallist and 2008 Olympic contender Pam Grace. Pam was so taken by The Gypsy Kings abilities that she told us that she believes he could achieve the Grand Prix level of dressage. History is being written every day that attests to the versatility and talent of the amazing Vanner horses. |
|
Professional trainer Bob Giles (pictured driving our Crown Darby) trained eight Gypsy Gold horses for the Vanner breed's debut in '98. |
27 time USDF Champion and Gold Medalist Pam Grace and The Gypsy King perform at Pin Oak Charity Show in Houston TX, 2005. |
Purchased from Gypsy Gold, Jasmine and Esmerelda became the #1 tandem driving team in North America. |
|
|
driving team in North America. ![]() |
Click
here to return to
list of questions (or scroll down)
"A Golden Retriever
with hooves" ™
|
Concerning
feathers: All feathered horses evolved from a large prehistoric
easygoing, hairy horse called The
Forest Horse which lived in the forests of Europe. Feathering (hair) is an additive or cumulative gene so to
develop the most feathered horse in the world Gypsies had to focus on
only feathered horses. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that the
feathering holds a genetic key to the breed's easy going Forest Horse
temperament. In
conclusion it is selective, feathered horse genetics and unique social
management of those genetics that has created one of the most gentle
horse breeds in the world. It is common for a Gypsy mother to tell her
children to stop bothering the horses as they crawl over and under them.
At Gypsy Gold we call the Gypsy Vanner Horse "A Golden Retriever
with hooves" ™ Remember
80% of the horses that Gypsies raise are not a breed, they are a type of
horse called trade horses. Until you develop an eye for the breed, the
trade horses will fool you. Trade horses look similar to the breed but
have other inherited characteristics, which often come from smooth
legged horse breeds like the Connamara and Irish Draught. Smooth legged
genetics will reduce the feathering, change the temperament and often
result in a less magical look. |
Click
here to return to
list of questions (or scroll down)
BB King
was America's first
solid colored Gypsy Vanner.
The Vanner is not a
color breed, it is a body type...
|
To achieve unique colors like palomino or Appaloosa, Gypsies step away from the primary (base) genetics that created the Vanner breed to get the unusual color and then go back to base genetics to replace the feather or other classic traits lost in the process. This is why you often see a reduction in feathering or other subtle breed trait differences with more exotic colors. A Gypsy will always choose body type
over color. |
| Our tri colored colt Latcho's Banner... |
GG Sweeper's Coal, |
![]() |
Click
here to return to
list of questions (or scroll down)
The "classic"
Vanner is the centerpiece of the vision...
|
The Classic Vanner is the centerpiece of the vision that created the breed however in recent years, (about the last 10 to 15) the Mini Vanner has become extremely popular with Gypsies. The prices for a prize Mini Vanner can be staggering from one Gypsy to another. We predict that in time the Mini Vanner and the Grand Vanner will become as popular in America as the Classic Vanner is today. The key to the breed no matter what size you embrace is to focus on the seven characteristics that define the Vanner's magic - the breed standard - as paramount goals in your breeding program.
|
Gypsy Gold's Grand Vanner filly, Chakra
(pictured here at six months old) is, at
24 mos., 17 hh. with more growth to come!
Click
here to return to
list of questions (or scroll down)
English Gypsies... would
never reject a blue eyed horse
|
|
GG Latcho's Blue at four months of age...
(Blue now belongs to the Cofers - Belle Reid Farm - in Georgia)
Click
here to return to
list of questions (or scroll down)
Many trade horses have
been sold as though they are the 'breed' to unknowing buyers...
|
That same breeder will have a band of mares with known genetics and a prized stallion or stallions that will never leave him. He breeds them together in pursuit of the breed’s vision; a vision that only he and other Gypsy breeders like him knew until Cindy and I stumbled upon one selectively bred stallion and began a journey to understand how he got his magic. The world's first selectively bred stallion ever to be recognized as a breed of horse raised by Gypsies is Gypsy Gold’s Cushti Bok. Over a decade has passed since Cindy and I first saw Cushti Bok. The stallion that sired him (The Old Horse of Wales) is still owned by the very same Gypsy that raised Cushti Bok from a baby and The Old Horse of Wales is still one of the best producing stallions in Great Britain. In 1992, the Gypsy who raised Cushti Bok sold him to another Gypsy breeder for 7,000 BPS (British Pound Sterling). 7,000 BPS is the equivalent of $14,000 US dollars with today’s exchange rate. If you add import fees and what it cost to identify a legitimate stallion potential colt like Cushti Bok, you will have an expensive baby by the time he gets to America. After a stallion like Cushti Bok has developed a reputation for producing the centerpiece of the breed you will have an even more expensive horse, but you will have a horse worthy of establishing his new breed in a new land. To this day the finest filly example of the breed I have ever seen was a daughter of Cushti Bok. She was not for sale and was being gifted to a son of the Gypsy who owned him. Here are the established prices of selectively bred horses raised by Gypsies if you were to purchase them directly from a Gypsy breeder without an importer involved. There are exceptions to everything but this will give you a good feel for true established breed values. As responsible breeders in America we do not want to erode Gypsies' existing breed values or blend them with their non-breed trade horses. Worldwide understanding has not happened yet... but it will. Stallion potential colts: They range from approximately a low of 3000+ BPS or ($6,000+ US dollars) to 7000+ BPS or ($14,000+US dollars) plus import fees. Import fees for air and ground will be approximately $8,000 dollars delivered to your door for a horse under two years old. The import figure is not based on volume purchasing because stallion potential colts do not exist in volume. Finding a legitimate stallion potential colt is like finding a needle in a haystack; it takes time and breed knowledge. If purchased from an importer, the task is immensely more complicated and should only be done with irrefutable proof of parentage supported by DNA. Buying from an importer is really much more complicated than this but DNA proof of heritage is an absolute must. Selectively
bred colts in general can be purchased for less but for the good of the
breed and breeders (both Gypsy and non-), most colts should be gelded
before they are shipped out of Great Britain. Top aged stallions that
are highly proven to produce the breed will be in the 20,000 BPS range
($40,000 US dollars) plus import fees. It is possible to find a
legitimate proven stallion for less but that opportunity will often include a
relationship with Gypsy breeders who share your passion to perpetuate
their vision. Any truly worthy breed stallion will be known by top Gypsy
breeders and will be expensive. Remember that 80% of the horses that Gypsies raise are called trade horses and are raised like cattle for the restaurant industry in Europe. You can buy Gypsy trade horse colts (which are probably black and white and have some feather!) for 100 BPS ($200 US dollars or less) and fillies for around 400 BPS ($800 US dollars or less) with adult mares being around 750 BPS ($1,500 US dollars more or less. Trade horse prices are ironically similar to cattle prices. Many trade horses have been sold as though they are the breed to unknowing buyers throughout the world. The Internet, a lack of breed knowledge and horse traders' buy/sell mentality has created an environment that is ripe for this to happen. When you see web sites which advertise multiple names all together on their site (like Gypsy Horse, Gypsy Vanner Horse, Gypsy Cob, Tinker Horse, Irish Cob etc.), you are dealing with a horse trader focused on a transaction or you are dealing with someone who has been influenced by a horse trader's transaction based message - not a breeder with a focused vision for a breed. If you're looking for a horse with that 'magic' look you have come to love, find a reputable breeder of registered (DNA tested) Gypsy Vanner Horses. An excellent place to start to find your Gypsy Vanner Horse is the list of Certified Gypsy Vanner breeders found on CertifiedHorse.com. All Gypsies love “doing a deal” - just like horse traders - so they will sell you whatever you want. We should not expect them (on an individual level) to be a policeman for the genetic integrity of horses they sell to trader/importers. It is our responsibility to understand the difference in their horses and - with that knowledge - establish their breed, outside of their world, as they envisioned it to be. Only with knowledge and goals to respect or improve established dollar values (which Gypsies enjoy for their selectively bred horses) can we establish and maintain worldwide parallel breed integrity. A Gypsy (in reference to those trader/importers) recently said to me, “If they want crap we will sell them crap”. Sincere and dedicated breeders both Gypsy and non-Gypsy throughout the world will always be this breed's salvation. Cindy and I consciously made it our goal to transfer the feelings, genetics and value that the true breed enjoys with Gypsies, to America intact. The vision was that (with America as a centerpiece) the Vanner breed would become understood and then have the opportunity to develop in parallel worldwide. More and more Europeans are realizing that the horses raised by Gypsies (which developed as a breed under a different name than "Vanner" in their countries) were 100% brought to their countries by horse traders focused on transactions, and were not a breed. For this reason, in Europe, trade horses have confused the breed's intended look and genetics. In most European countries -and on mass-importers' web sites - you can buy a "Gypsy" horse for around $2,000 dollars, which is totally unrealistic for the real breed. There is an opportunity for dedicated breeders, breed lovers and breed societies in those countries to re-establish and re-position the breed as it was intended by aligning with the Gypsy Vanner Horse Society in America. I have received several unsolicited requests for this to happen from passionate breed lovers in Europe. I invite anyone interested in how this might work to contact me at info@GypsyVannerHorse.com.
|
Click
here to return to
list of questions (or scroll down)
We
are dedicated to establishing the Vanner breed with it’s magic intact...
This
is a question that must be answered in a personal way.
|
Click
here to return to
list of questions (or scroll down)
All names that are
different from "Gypsy Vanner Horse" came after ...
|
Until 1996, all horses raised by the Gypsies of Great Britain were called colored horses. The phrase identified 100% of all horses raised by Gypsies; no matter if they were selectively bred for half a century or a horse raised like cattle for the European restaurant business. The story of Gypsy Gold and the Gypsy Vanner Horse is a story about two people from America and their desire to understand one of the world's least understood societies and the horses they raise. It began one day when my late wife Cindy and I noticed a little black and white stallion standing in a field on the border of England and Wales (Oswestry England). When we stopped the car for a closer look, our lives were forever changed (see 'Discovery'). A desire to understand the horse that fate had handed us was born that day and quickly became an unrelenting obsession. The effort gave us an understanding of the horses raised by Gypsies which was unparalleled outside of the world of Gypsies - and that kind of knowledge is a must if one is to legitimately establish a breed of horse developed by the Gypsies of Great Britain. Our study was an unbiased, non-prejudiced overview of Gypsies and their horses that resulted in conclusions that even Gypsies found fascinating. Our
effort uncovered a vision that was unknown outside of the world of
Gypsies: to
create the perfect caravan horse . Ironically, the colorful
"little stallion" we first encountered was a superb reflection
of that very vision. Interestingly, that little horse was named "The
Log"; we renamed him Cushti Bok which means 'good luck' in the Romany
language of Gypsies. For
ten days while at Appleby we listened and watched for any Gypsy who sold
or purchased a quality looking horse. We then approached them, introduced
ourselves and documented how we might contact them later. After ten long
days of intensely studying horses raised by Gypsies, we were amazed, there
was indeed not one stallion at that fair that was any better (or, frankly,
as good) as the one we saw the very first day. For
the next four years we followed the contacts we made at Appleby as we
listened and learned about the horses raised by Gypsies. We
traced the genetics of Cushti Bok through three countries finding his
parents in one and grandparents in another. It was Gypsy breeders focused
on the vision that created him and raised them all. We
learned that, as a yearling, he was the most highly prized selectively
bred colt in all of Great Britain at the very same horse fair we had
attended years earlier. We would trace his unknown breed’s genetic
origins to two stallions: “Sonny Mays” and “The Coal Horse”, and
would identify many of the great mares and stallions that came after them.
We stood overlooking the Irish Sea with the little stallion's father (The
Old Horse) and the Gypsy that raised him (Tom Price) as he pointed to a
clearing under a tree and said, “He was born right over there, I will
never forget the day he was born. I held him in my arms and knew he was
special. He is the best colt I ever raised”. Tom invited us into his
caravan that day where he gave us a picture of the little stallion’s
mother and a book titled Appleby Horse Fair. Inside the book was a
picture of Cushti Bok being ponied through the river Eden at Appleby. The
picture was taken the year that Bok was the most prized selectively bred
colt at Appleby. Tom gave us the book that day, and here is that very
photo (with Bok in the lead!):
Think
about it... You are driving down the road in England and the look of
a horse intrigues you. In your effort to understand it, you uncover the
vision that created his unknown breed. Once the vision for the Gypsies'
breed and it's genetic origins were understood, a name needed to be chosen
that would separate the breed from the horses that Gypsies raise as a
commodity. The only thing Cindy and I have ever wanted from this
experience is to give these people and the wonderful horses they have
created their day in the sun. A name that separates the breed from the
type and an understanding of the difference is the only way to make that
happen. The word "vanner" in the English Chambers dictionary means “A horse suitable to pull a caravan”. Mr. Hart was simply talking in his native English language when he used the word vanner. Cindy had, indeed, discovered the perfect name for a horse raised by Gypsies born from a vision to create their perfect caravan horse. The icing on the cake was that we both heard Gypsies say “It’s a proper vanner" when they saw a horse they really admired. Like Mr. Hart, the Gypsies who said “proper vanner” were simply using their English language to describe a horse that was suitable to pull a caravan. Cindy knew that Gypsy Vanner Horse was the perfect name right away, but I was not as sure and agonized about it for a very long time. We had already written a mission on our journey to understand horses raised by Gypsies that began with ...a commitment to bring honor recognition and a better understanding... and concluded with ...to remain quality based, culturally sensitive and socially responsible. Every night I would wake up and worry if we were honoring these people, bringing a better understanding to them and their horses and being culturally sensitive if we used the name 'Gypsy' at all in their new breed's name. The word is a romantic and colorful word in America but often has a different feeling in Europe. I was driving Cindy crazy with my obsession over this until the words of a Gypsy convinced me that Gypsy Vanner Horse, was indeed his breed’s perfect name. Here's how I came to that conclusion, in three parts. (Part one) The word 'Gypsy' is an umbrella word. You can compare it to the word 'American'. There are several types of people that live under it’s umbrella meaning. There are genetically identifiable people originally from India called Romany. There are people who live a Gypsy lifestyle based on historical happenstance (the clearings and the potato famines) called Irish and Scottish Travelers. There are people who are half Romany and half non-Romany called Didikoi and there are people who have lived a Gypsy lifestyle for generations who have no connection to genetics or historical happenstance. All definitions will have horse breeders that have contributed to the development of the Vanner breed. The word Gypsy therefore is the only word that could ever honor all the people that live under its umbrella meaning. Using the name Gypsy in the breed description could therefore achieve the goal to honor and bring a better understanding to the people that live under it’s umbrella meaning. Like American in American Quarter Horse, it is meant to describe the people that had a vision... it is not meant to describe their vision. Calling a Vanner "a Gypsy horse" is like going to a Quarter Horse farm and saying, of their horses, "Those are nice looking Americans"! If you don't understand and credit the vision, you risk losing it. (Part
two) The word Vanner is the breed's vision word and is absolutely perfect
for the breed worldwide because it is the only word that truly identifies
a Gypsy's vision to create his perfect caravan horse and it is a proper
English word which honors the breed's origin. A
breed must have a word that describes the vision that created it (again,
like American Quarter horse) or the vision for the breed
must be clearly understood and fixed (like Arabian). The
challenge in all of this has been to separate the vision horses (breed)
from the general population of Gypsies' colored horses. I won’t beat
around the bush here; one is a status symbol, and the other is the 'trade'
horse raised for the restaurant business in Belgium, Holland and France.
If we don’t separate the breed from the trade type, we have compromised
the breed’s genetic integrity and established value with Gypsies. “
Why, Gypsy Vanner Horse is the perfect name; These
are the exact words of a Gypsy who has maintained selective genetics (born
from a vision to create his perfect caravan horse) for over 50 years. He
has, like all dedicated Gypsy breeders, the genetics of many of the
greatest stallions and mares in the history of the breed running through
the veins of his vision horses. The
Lob Eared Horse, The Paddy Horse, The Coal Horse, Tyson, The Sham, Old
Henry, The Old White Mare, The Eagle Mare, The Horseshoe Mare, Bonnie, The
Pio Mare, Sonny Mays, Pride, The Roadsweeper UK, The Bank, The Old Horse,
The Midget Mare and The Kent Horse are just a few of the names that run
deep in the veins of this man's horses and in the veins of all horses
raised by dedicated breeders of the Vanner vision worldwide. For
that reason and that reason only we protected the name Gypsy Vanner Horse
for the Society founded to establish and protect the breed. The name is
now what is called a certification mark. A certified Gypsy Vanner
Horse must have the seven qualities envisioned by Gypsies for their
perfect caravan horse to become certified. It is our intention that
no 'trade', or culled horse will make it through the rigorous
certification jurying procedure (click here to
visit Certified Horse). On November 24, 1996, Gypsy Gold's Bat and Dolly became America's first Gypsy's Vanner horses and, on that same day the world's first registry for a selectively bred horse raised by Gypsies - The Gypsy Vanner Horse Society - was established. Bat and Dolly stayed secluded at our farm in Ocala, Florida, and over the next two years, Cindy and I meticulously identified and imported a total of 16 Vanners that were genetically capable of producing the centerpiece of the breed. As fate would have it, the very horse we saw on day one - Cushti Bok - was one of those. In June of 1998, we introduced the Gypsy Vanner Horse breed and it's society on the Internet and to the American public at Equitana, USA in Louisville, Kentucky. The world went wild for the images of the magic horses. But the world did not understand that they were not merely "Gypsy" horses... they were Gypsy Vanner Horses. All names that are different from Gypsy Vanner Horse came after the breed’s introduction in 1998. Individuals with visions not in harmony with the Gypsy Vanner Horse Society's visions coined them all. To me only one name will ever truly represent the breed that Gypsies envisioned, and that name is Gypsy Vanner Horse. Cindy is gone now and I will follow one day. I can only hope that the vision now shared by many - to legitimately recognize a breed of horse raised by Gypsies - will live on forever. As
amazing as it may seem, the opportunity is still “All in a Name”. |